| From Photoworkshop.com Wisdom and Inspiration All images are © Mariette Pathy Allen
Mariette Pathy Allen: At around 10 I remember waking up one day and thinking something like: "The grown-ups really don't have the answers. They're just making it up. So that means all these rules are just something they agree on." Then, in high school, Dalton included anthropology in our social studies course, and it was a real eye-opener for me. It confirmed what I had always thought: Different cultures have different ways of seeing the world, of creating family structures and performing gender roles. Nobody has THE answers. Later I got involved in the Women's Movement, and paid careful attention to the treatment of men and women. You can see all these influences in my earliest photographic series on NJ and Philadelphia, 1968, especially in "Don't be a dishwasher...". Finally, when I met cross dressers for the first time, in 1978, I recognized that I had found a whole community of people who, of necessity, were exploring gender roles. I also came to understand that, sex (anatomy), gender, (one's sense of self), and sexual orientation, (choice of partner), are separate, independent issues. I think this realization offers a lot more freedom, for all of us. RS: What drawbacks have you encountered from pursuing this venue of imagery? MPA: When I present my work, I usually end up explaining the issues and recounting something about the lives of the people I photograph. This puts me in the documentary category and I have difficulty getting the work to be seen as fine art and exhibition worthy. Commercial galleries assume that this work won't sell. Museums tend to want the work in their collections but tend not to exhibit it, although it was in an exhibition at the Brooklyn Museum this year. People want to assume that this work is just about a small minority of people who have a problem, rather than seeing it as a more dramatic form of the issues that we all deal with as we create our lives as women or men. RS: Tell me about yourself. Were you introduced to art in your childhood? MPA: Although my parents were Hungarian, I was actually born in Alexandria, Egypt because that's where my father's family worked. However, my mother and I moved to New York City when I was one. I lived in a world that was neither European nor American. My mother's twin sister has been an artist all her life and whenever I saw her in Milan, Italy, we sat together and drew or painted. I was also influenced by my school, Dalton, which was very progressive in those days, and excellent in the arts. In the 4th grade five of us (including me) had our paintings exhibited at the Betty Parsons Gallery in New York City.
MPA: After I graduated with an MFA in painting from the graduate school of Fine Arts at the University of Pennsylvania, a friend invited me to Harold Feinstein's photography workshop. Harold is an extraordinary photographer, teacher, and human being, and I couldn't resist taking his class. He was a very supportive and inspirational teacher who helped us feel at ease photographing people on the street, or anywhere else. As time went on, I found myself doing more photography than painting, and getting jobs, so I decided I'd better call myself a photographer. RS: Did you study photography formally? MPA: I took a number of workshops with Harold Feinstein and learned darkroom printing. When I left Philadelphia for NYC, it coincided with Harold's move to New York City. I also took various classes around NYC. Phillipe Halsman offered a great course on studio lighting. I took other miscellaneous classes here and there. Finally, I found Allen Frame, another inspiring teacher. As a result of a weekend workshop at ICP, taught by Allen, I asked him if he would be my mentor. I make appointments with him every few months to go over whatever I've been doing. In the process, like Harold, he has become a friend. RS: Has the response by family and friends to your photography in this area been what you thought it would be? MPA: My family was very disappointed when I switched from painting to photography, and most are somewhat embarrassed by my work, although nominally supportive. Most of my friends are supportive. RS: How about the general public response? Has that been positive? MPA: Initially I was seen as a pioneer and people were intrigued. I also experienced some awful things. When I received a 1988 NYSCA grant, the New York Post ran a front page headline: "Tax $$ Going for Men in Drag!" This insulting barrage continued for two weeks, attacking the wisdom of my grant and three others. The Post used cropped photos of mine to illustrate their point. I hired a lawyer to sue The Post. The only way I could sue them was by using a new, untried law against "The defamation of Art Work.” Obviously, my grant was news, so they had the right to interpret that any way they wanted, but the cropping of my photos was defamation. We ended up settling out of court and I made just enough money to pay the lawyer's fee!
MPA: Both books have been reviewed quite extensively and excerpts published in various magazines. I've made television appearances and radio promotions in many parts of the country. I'm also the official photographer for a magazine called "The Transgender Tapestry" that comes out several times a year, and my personal work appears in it frequently, which helps to remind people of these publications. Finally, there have been some exhibitions, both in the US and in Europe. I have just been invited to participate in a photo festival in China, so my transgender work will be seen there this year. RS: The Chinese Government is so controlling. Do you think that the subject matter of your work will be a problem for them? MPA: As my reviewer at PhotoLucida was Chinese, I can only assume that he thinks my work is okay for a festival. He himself was very empathetic and positive. I'm hoping that I'll find some trans people in China to photograph and use in my series on trans in other countries RS: What has surprised you most about your work in this area? MPA: I've been moved and thrilled to know that my work has made such a difference to transgender people. My first book especially, Transformations: Crossdressers and Those Who Love Them, was the first book to portray the "community" is a positive light and to include the voices of partners and family members. I've been told that marriages have been saved, and even lives. One person said she read the book once a week. Others said they cried all night in with relief in finding others with similar stories. Many transgender people grow up thinking they were "the only ones in the world" to have the feelings and desires they have and are ashamed or even worse, assume they're crazy. The response to "The Gender Frontier" has also been very positive, but since it came out in the digital age, the shock and delight of recognition isn't part of the response. Instead, it is appreciated by the "community" for it's historical value and for the equal presentations of female to males and male to females. The book won the 2004 Lambda Literary Award in the transgender/genderqueer category. RS: Do you have hope that with the new President and the selections of key figures of government that go along with him that the US will be made more aware of such things as transgender and hopefully more accepting? MPA: I think that's been happening locally, gradually, over the past 15 years. Laws against discrimination based on gender identity and expression are in place covering about one third of the US, however, there is no national law, and transgender is usually not included in laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I'm hoping President Obama and his administration will make this country a more open-minded place, like the UK, The Netherlands, Germany and Spain.
MPA: My publisher, Kehrer Verlag (Publisher), is in Heidelberg, Germany, so that’s the main reason. However, it's true that German publishers seem to be more open to controversial issues. RS: Your bio on your website mentions that you have an MFA in painting from the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Fine Arts – and then you became interested in photography. Do you think you might ever return to painting? MPA: Yes, I have a yearning to do collage and painting, partly because I miss the literal cutting and pasting, the physicality of making art. Ideally, I'd like to find a way of combining my photography with more hands on work but haven't figured out how to do that yet. RS: After your book Transformations and after many others on gender orientation, you participated (with four other photographers) in a book titled Masked Culture, which documents the Greenwich Village Halloween Parade. Was this documentation for you a continuation of your work with cross-dressers? MPA: Not really, although I photographed a lot of drag artists in the '80s and '90s. My husband, Ken Allen, was very involved with the Halloween Parade. He made extraordinary costumes for himself as well as creating costumes for groups, such as "Lucifer and the Fallen Angels". We loved the parade and I photographed all aspects of it. To my surprise, I discovered that there was a group of four photographers who were working together, and I ended up joining them. It took us eight years to finish the book and see it published. Unfortunately, that publication coincided with Ken's death. RS: How did Ken feel about your transgender imagery? MPA: He was always supportive of my work. We had a few parties where we include gender non-conforming people along with our more conforming friends. RS: You have worked on documentary films such as The Transgender Revolution and Southern Comfort, do you think you will ever direct a film on your own? What specific material would you like to explore in it? MPA: I did video when I worked for the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs, in the '70s and didn't like it that much because I prefer capturing a moment in time. One thing I might do though, is record the voices of some of the people who I photograph, perhaps including voice with photographs when they're exhibited. RS: Do any of your immediate family members fall outside the realm of what most people would consider “normal” gender orientation? If they did, would that be a problem for you? PMA: One of my daughters identifies as "queer" and hangs out in the "queer community" because she feels comfortable there. She's also a performance artist, and tries out many roles and genders. She's an explorer too, but much more radical than I am. My other daughter, on the other hand, is married to a man and has twins – a boy and a girl. Thus far their gender identity seems pretty stereotypical in that my grandson likes trains and my granddaughter plays with dolls and wears dresses.
RS: Have you ever cross-dressed just to see how you would feel with such a “look?” If not, would you consider it? MPA: I took a Drag King Workshop with Diane Torr, one of the pioneers in this area. It was a great experience! The women in the workshop create male characters including a history, then we find clothes for him and learn how to walk, sit, speak, take up space, as men. As a grand finale, we went to a stripper club and interacted with the men hanging out, ogling the women. There's nothing like experiencing oneself as another person, or becoming invisible as oneself! RS: In your transgender workshop, who was the "man" you became? Why did you select this person? MPA: I decided to be the brother I never had. If I had been a boy, I'm pretty sure I would have felt compelled to go into the family shipping business. I just kept trying to imagine him-it was hard work- and at the end, people told me I looked like Oscar Wilde! I enjoyed learning how to take up space, but didn't trust my voice, so mostly I grunted! RS: Where do you see your theme of transgender going in the future? Are there other directions in photography, which you want to explore? MPA: The two areas I've been exploring involve transgender in cultures other than Mainland USA, and transyouth, as young as teenagers, in the US. Both of these projects are in early stages. Most of the time I work on other projects while continuing with the transgender work. Currently, I have another series going on: "Scapes." This is an all color project that feels like a scavenger hunt as I don't know where or when I'll find the next image. RS: Congratulations on all the fine work you have accomplished in the area of gender identity. I look forward to see where you take it in the future as well as what your new series “Scapes” becomes. More of Mariette’s work can be seen at: www.mariettepathyallen.com She can be contacted at: mariette@nyc.rr.com, (212) 496-0655 or Mariette Pathy Allen, 100 Riverside Drive 15-A, New York, New York 1002 Robert A. Schaefer, Jr. is a founding member of Photoworkshop.com, and has been a photographer for over 30 years. His work is in the collection of the Museum of Modern Art in New York as well as the Bibliothéque Nationale in Paris, France. He had a one-person exhibition (November 10, 2007 to January 8, 2008) at the Montgomery Museum of Fine Arts in Montgomery, Alabama his home state. He writes about photography for Double Exposure and The Photo Review in Pennsylvania and teaches photography in the Department of Continuing and Professional Studies at New York University. More recently, he began instructing workshops on cyanotype printing at the Center for Alternative Photography in New York City and in September he will be part of a group exhibition at the Mishkin Gallery in Baruch College. His work is represented by the Domeischel Gallery, Ltd. as well as Wm Floyd in New York City and the DeFrog Gallery in Houston,Texas. Robert can be contacted at rasjrpro@earthlink.net and www.schaeferphoto.com © Copyright 2002 by Photoworkshop.com |
